The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with more Stephen "Breadman" Edwards tackling topics such as more aftermath reaction to Teofimo Lopez's big win over Vasiliy Lomachenko, female star Claressa Shields, Roman Gonzalez vs. Juan Francisco Estrada rematch, and more
Loma isn't as good defensively as Floyd nor can he fight on the inside and counter under attack like Floyd can.
Loma also has a short reach so he needed to get deep on the inside to be successful.
I watched Loma fight against Campbell and Campbell was successful against Loma in spots because of his height and length.
I went and watched Mayweather vs. N'Dou fight for comparison. Floyd was more dynamic at 135lbs than Loma and quicker. Floyd was able to stand chest to chest with N'Dou and barely get hit. He figured out the timing of N'Dou's jab and pull countered it taking his jab away. Floyd shoulder rolled or slipped outside the right hand, countering with right hands and left hooks respectively.
Lopez took Loma's step around move away by pivoting to remain face to face with Loma, he also attacked Loma's body keeping Loma's hands at home.
Lopez did get tired from rounds 7-10, but got a second wind in 11 and 12. Loma closed the gap some during rounds 7-10 and could've won the fight if he started earlier. As the older fighter Loma expected Lopez to get tired in the middle rounds where he could come on and win the fight but he gave up too many rounds early.
Bread’s Response: I agree with some and disagree with some….
Floyd is better defensively than Loma. I don’t care about the ESPN stat that shows Loma has the best PLUS/MINUS punch stats. I also think Floyd has a better counter attack. I think they are comparable on the INSIDE.
But my big disagreement is comparing Campbell and Ndou as opponents. Here is why…..You’re losing CONTEXT.
I remember Phillip Ndou very well. He was tall but he was a slow SWARMER. He had a pretty record but he wasn’t elite in terms of skill set or talent. He was a big target. He didn’t have great defensive reflexes. And he literally bit on everything Floyd did. It was probably Floyd’s easiest title fight up until that point in his career. Floyd also has a huge reach advantage over Loma. It’s like 7 inches! So Floyd while often giving up height, he was rarely giving up LENGTH and LENGTH is more important.
Campbell is NOT a swarmer. He fights more like a fencer. He has high pedigree and he has much more natural talent than Ndou despite them being similar in height. So Campbell won’t let you do things that Ndou will. In Floyd’s fight directly before Ndou he fought Victor Sosa. Watch that one youtube. Sosa was much better than Ndou and he actually fought well vs Floyd. Floyd wasn’t able to do nearly as much damage to Sosa that he was able to do to Ndou. If Loma gets a guy like Ndou at 135, he lights him up and stops him.
I do agree that Loma needed to get deep inside in order to be successful and that’s not easy when you’re fighting an ultra talent who can keep you at range and is a bigger puncher. I keep bringing up RANGE for a reason.
Let’s look at some historic fights when the smaller man, had to get inside vs the bigger, longer, dynamic, younger puncher. It rarely ends well for the older smaller fighter.
Tiger vs Foster. Armstrong vs Robinson. Frazier vs Foreman. Duran vs Hearns. Marquez vs Mayweather. Hopkins vs Dawson. Napoles vs Monzon. Griffith vs Monzon. Chavez vs Oscar. Olivares vs Arguello. Holyfield vs Lewis. Qawi vs Holyfield.
In each one of these fights the older smaller guy who I named first lost kind of BIG despite being a great fighter. In some cases even considered better overall.
Lopez did take away Loma’s pivot. That was a great but simple move. Whenever a fighter is pivoting to an angle, if you pivot the opposite on the mirror you end up in the same spot you started out. Great move by Teofimo.
Loma’s strategy would have been better if he invested more in body punching. Punishment wears a fighter down. If you don’t put hurt on them, their fatigue will not set in as much. Loma made a push but Lopez had too much GAS. He wasn’t depleted when Loma pushed and in those rounds where Lopez was tiring, Loma wasn’t stabbing his midsection.
Loma may feel like he can wait until next time but boxing doesn’t work like that. Teofimo will be better the next time they fight and Loma will be coming off yet another surgery.
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Hi Bread,
First time writing in- I’ll keep it short!
Given that swarming, pressure styles don’t tend to age well, who has managed to keep it going at a high level for the longest in their careers without having to adapt? I was racking my brain and remembered that Calzaghe threw a ridiculous amount of punches per fight well in to his mid 30’s- is this down to incredible fitness, a lack of wear and tear, or was he just a freak of a human?
Thanks,
Rob from Chester, England
Bread’s Response: I would say Calzaghe and Pacquiao are the longest lasting pressure swarmers. But they both are hybrid fighters. Calzaghe is taller and he has an outside game. Pacman is just one of a kind. And he also believe it or not is an outside fighter along with being a swarmer. Neither has to be overly close to their opponents in order to be successful.
Hey Bread,
I read your mailbag faithfully. I've read your comments on Lomo , Lopez and agree with you on most points you had if not all. I picked Lopez to win although I saw a knockout win for him instead of points.
The reason I'm writing is about Deontay Wilder though. What is your take on his lack of speaking or informing his fanbase what's going on? I'm a huge Wilder fan and still pick him to beat Fury if they do fight a 3rd time and I've still got him beating most everybody else in the division. Why would he just disappear so to speak? Do you think he is done with boxing or just taking a long breather?
Thanks Bread for all your insight and thanks for not being like most boxing voices for you are more unbiased than most.
Joe from Tennessee
Bread’s Response: Sometimes I think we move too fast in our judgments. Deontay Wilder is human. His emotions go in different directions. Just because he’s being quiet it doesn’t mean he’s done with boxing. I have no idea what is going with Wilder. But let’s not jump the gun. He may just be training and working on his game.
What's good Bread. Great fight card by Top Rank and ESPN. Stand up Lopez for a great game plan. Going into this fight I was not a big fan of either fighter. I had watched maybe one or two fights for each. I thought Lopez body work is what won him the fight and I think it was completely overlooked during the fight. I noticed every time Lomo would engage and Lopez touched his body he would back away. Also, the shot to the body that Lopez landed and Lomo tried to say was below the belt was right on the beltline. It was a great shot that hurt Lomo. My bigger question is how often the commentating plays a role in providing a false narrative of a robbery or horrible judging? I ask because although I was a fan of Wards while he was fighting and I think he has a great boxing mind, and does a great job with play by play I think he is becoming to corporate. There is absolutely no way you could have scored the fight a draw. It was clear to me that Lomo gave away the first 7 rounds but lets just say you gave him one of those rounds. That 6 rounds Lopez but Wards scorecard had to have Lomo up one round going into the 12th because it was also clear that Lopez won the 12th and if that's the case I smell home cooking by the Top Rank team. You also have to commend Lopez for daring to be great. He slayed the giant. That is a fight that Tank should have had. I had no problem with the 119 scorecard because although I thought Lomo won rounds 8-11 a round or two could have gone either way.
While talking about Tank what is taking him so long to turn the corner? It's like we have been talking about him forever and now we are talking about him in the same breath as Devin, Lopez, Stevenson, and guys that seem like they came a couple of years after him.
What do you make of the Wilder vs Fury debacle? Does Wilder not want to tango anymore or is it clear Fury is trying to avoid for a bigger payday in Joshua?
Bread’s Response: I think Andre Ward is excellent on his fight analysis. I don’t always agree with him but I respect his opinion. I do wish he talked more about the way he neutralized fighters on the inside. He seems a little more partial to boxing and moving as a commentator. But that’s really nitpicking. I don’t have any issues with Ward.
And his scorecard of 114-114 is not as far off as you think. You only need to have Loma winning round 2 which I agree with. Then sweeping 7 through 11 which is not out of the question. Rounds 2 and 7 seem to be the big points of controversy. I can’t remember each round verbatum but I do remember watching it and saying to my self Loma stole round 2. Many don’t feel he won that round. I also remember him stepping on it in round 7 but I can’t remember the exact details of the round. The problem for Loma is Teofimo was still rumbling and giving himself a case for those rounds. From 7-11 there were a few swing rounds.
When we talk about boxing we use the group theory to section off fights which is wrong. I can remember when Oscar fought Tito everyone claimed Oscar gave up the last part of the fight. Some assumed it was 9-12. It wasn’t. It was 10-12. That’s a big difference. Oscar won the 9th round. He only lost 3 rounds in a row not 4. Watch the fight again.
I think Lopez DESERVED the win. But I can understand Ward’s scorecard. Especially if we are talking about the 2nd round. Some say Teo swept rounds 1-7. I didn’t see that. I thought he won 5 out of the first 6 rounds. There is a difference. Every round needs to be counted individually.
Dear Breadman,
I was shocked to see Loma/The Matrix lose to Teofimo Lopez. I always thought Loma's speed was enough against any fighter in the division. Do you think he needs to have more power? On another note, can boxers rev up their speed at superhuman rates? I read somewhere that Steph Curry used strobe goggles to improve his reflexes. Do you think it helps? I read a book about a boxer who lived in what looks like a "time bubble" where everything is faster to make him quicker than his opponents. The book is called Quantum Boxer (Amazon). I know fighters try (not so) crazy stuff to gain advantage like high-altitude training and drinking their pee to make them durable or stronger. Can you hypothetically do the same with speed? Should aspiring fighters try time-bending experiments on their body? I am curious to know your thoughts on this.
Cheers,
Camilo
Bread’s Response: If you look at boxing history closely, we have to know that the bigger, younger, just as fast, more rangier fighter usually wins that fight. Although Loma was rightfully the favorite.
I never heard of strobe goggles but I suppose there are plenty of things you can do to become faster and quicker.
First let me clarify the difference. Speed is in the body. It’s how long it takes you move over a certain distance. It’s a gift but it can be enhanced. 100%. For example Amir Khan is fast. Lighting fast. But he’s not quick. He doesn’t process mentally very well.
Quickness can also be enhanced. But it can be enhanced through repetition. It’s in the mind. It’s reaction time. It’s the time you take to recognize something with the proper solution. For example Bernard Hopkins is quick. His lead right hand is BOOM!
Speed is in the body, quickness is in the mind. Some fighters are blessed to be fast and quick. Floyd Mayweather for example is both. So is Roy Jones.
To build speed you have to practice moving fast. Get stronger but become more lean. You can use fancy science but you can also get down in weight but get stronger. Your body will be stronger but moving around less MASS. Therefore you will become faster. If a boxer starts camp at 200lbs and he fights at 160lbs. And after 6 weeks he’s at 175lbs but he’s gotten stronger but lighter, he will no doubt be faster at that point.
All out SPRINTS are the best thing you can do to strengthen and speed up the whole body. It’s nothing like them.
As for quickness, practice the same move over and over. You will become quick. You will be able to land that shot against anyone. Alexis Arguello and Mikey Garcia are not fast fighters. But they have quick minds. They both land long right hands on everybody. Why, because they have quick minds. They weren’t blessed with blazing speed but they were blessed with quick minds. So therefore they can release those big right hands on the money at the elite level.
As for Loma I don’t view him as lighting fast especially with his hands. I view his hand speed on the same level as say a Pernell Whitaker. Whitaker was fast but it was a smooth fast. He wasn’t the fastest of his day. Roy Jones, Hector Camacho, Ray Leonard and Meldrick Taylor were all faster than Pernell Whitaker. I view Loma’s speed around Whitaker’s level. Very fast but not quite a blazer.
But Loma is quick minded. He has very fast feet. And he’s very coordinated and athletic. In another life Loma could be an acrobat. He could be a gymnast. He could be a wrestler. He could be a short stop. He’s an athletic human being. But I think his foot speed and overall coordination make him look faster than he may be. I’m not sure if he’s faster than Teofimo, Devin Haney or Ryan Garcia. Look very closely.
Best to you & yours Bread
Years ago I remember someone was asked about boxer's attributes & he said the bravest boxer was Chris Byrd.
Now, this caused some controversy because everyone thought the 'bravest' boxer must be the guy who goes into the trenches the most times. So Arturo Gatti, Mickey Ward or maybe Evander.
He said 'Chris Byrd because every single fight he goes up against a bigger, stronger guy & all he has is his technique & willpower', When I thought about it, I could see that, because you will get huge size disparities in the H/W division, but at least for Marciano, Floyd Patterson (1), Evander, even going waaaay back to Bob Fitzsimmons, they had power. A much bigger guy couldn't just walk in & muscle them around because he would have to take the sort of shots coming in that you wouldn't care to take. Chis didn't have any concussive power so every fight he just had to implement his best strategy while a bigger man's punches were whaling in at him. I thought what a wise remark!
Who do you think the bravest fighters have been, Bread?
(1) Floyd is not usually thought of as a puncher but look at his KOs of Johansen, who outweighed him by 15Ibs or so. Floyd definitely could 'whack' a bit.
Bread’s Response: There are many men who’s bravery stand out to me. Chris Byrd definitely is among the bravest fighters I have ever witnessed. He fought Wlad twice. That’s all you need to know about Byrd. And because he didn’t have a rock em, sock em style people didn’t realize how BRAVE he was.
Obviously Arturo Gatti and Diego Corrales. Then you have Bobby Chacon and Saad Muhammad. Then you have ATG like Evander Holyfield and Muhammad Ali. I can go on and on about bravery. We overlook some fighters bravery.
Look at a guy like Tommy Hearns. Hearns was clipped a few times. He started at welterweight. He moved all the way up to Cruiserweight and he literally tried to knock every opponent he ever fought out. He NEVER fought GUN SHY and he didn’t care who he fought. That’s bravery also, it’s just that he’s such a big puncher that people don’t realize he’s brave too.
One of the more recent BRAVE fighters is Steve Cunningham. Cunningham has taken some brutal knockdowns and most times he gets up fighting like a savage. He’s not a big puncher and he’s a small heavyweight. But his heart and bravery is different. If he was a big puncher he would be an ACTION Star.
Since P4P is used to identify the best fighter regardless of weight I was wondering how you would rate Claressa Shields if we expanded that definition to include regardless of gender as well?
Bread’s Response: Very good question. I really don’t know how to answer this. I don’t know if genetically an elite woman can fight an elite man. For example could Claressa Shields fight Jermall Charlo because they both fight at 160lbs. It’s not even something I am comfortable discussing. I don’t even like to see women spar men in the gym.
But here is what I will say. I think Shields is the best women’s fighter in the world. I don’t want to start mixing women and men fighting each other or accessing their skill sets because it’s just different. Claressa doesn’t fight men. She fights women. And she’s awesome at fighting women.
Honestly I don’t know if it’s appropriate or fair to Claressa to start doing that.
So it would seem that Chocolatito Gonzalez and Juan Franscisco Estrada are set on a collision course for a long-awaited rematch. I say, if it’s anything like the first fight… BRING IT ON!
Estrada did well against Cuadras. Survived a knockdown, kept his cool, then stunned him in the eleventh round for the stoppage. Fight of the Year candidate if you ask me.
Meanwhile, Chocolatito never ceases to amaze me. Takes both those losses to SSR, drops out of the top ten P4P lists almost completely, is essentially written off. But now he’s back! Maybe not to the level he once was, but he has surprised me in this comeback. What else can you call it?
This a fight you will be looking forward to? I imagine this time around, the odds favor Estrada. That being said, I have learned that Chocolatito is a guy you should NEVER count out! Definitely a HOF… do you think he’s an ATG? If not, would a win over Estrada boost him to that? On the other end, I currently see Estrada as a borderline HOF. I think if he beats Chocolatito this go-around, he’s in. Agree or nah? What do you think of the rematch? How do you see it playing out?
Bread’s Response: I think Roman “Chocolatito” Gonzalez is just wonderful. I love everything about him. He’s everything you want in a fighter. I think Estrada is also a great fighter. And he’s a little fresher and a little younger. He seems to be IN his prime while Choc is on the other side of his. But Estrada just had a very tough fight so who knows…I think he will open as a -175 favorite. But I will go on the record to say if Chocolatito tweaks his training regime slightly he can win. Choc is on a roll. He has the skill. He has the heart. He just needs a slight spark physically in my opinion. Estrada is a little more dense and physical at this point in their careers.
I think both Estrada and Choc are HOF. If Choc isn’t an ATG a win over Estrada would make him one. So let me say it this way. There are levels to ATGs in my opinion. If you are top 10 your division’s history you may be an ATG in your division but maybe not overall. Unless of course it’s heavyweight. For example I believe Terry Norris is an ATG at 154 but not an ATG overall.
I also believe you can be ATG smaller weight fighter with 126 featherweight being the cut off. Fighters like Nonito Donaire and Choc may fall into that category. They are among the best fighters I have seen who have competed below 126lbs. But I don’t know if they may top 100 ever which is around about ATG status. I would really have to sit down and come up with a big hard list. But as I am guessing right now I say Roman Gonzalez is an ATG. I think he just makes the cut.
In the last 20 years I can only put Floyd Mayweather, Manny Pacquiao, Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfield, Roy Jones and Bernard Hopkins over him without blinking. Everyone else he’s in their league in terms of accomplishments and eye ball test. He’s really that good if you think about everything he’s done. It’s really troubling that so many media critics overlook how good he’s been for how long he’s been good and only one fighter has been able to beat him.
Stand up Choc!
Hey Bread,
Yesterday I read something that Teofimo said prior to the 12th rd vs Loma that kind of surprised me, and it brings me to my question.
Teo said “My father told me in the last round that I should box him, and I knew that wasn’t a smart idea”. He also mentioned that Teo Sr. Questioned his tactics early on in the fight.
So, that being said, how often does a fighter go against or not follow the corners instruction and have success? It seemed very odd to me that Teo Sr. And Jr. were not on the same page a few times. Have there been other big fights where the fighter disobeyed the trainer and still won?
In your opinion, did Teo get hit clean too often? Thanks for taking the time to read and answer, Bread. Have a good one.
Mark Stoy McCahill II
Bread’s Response: I thought Lopez’s trainers did great. I didn’t hear or read that Teofimo didn’t follow the gameplan. So I have to read it and put it in context because I don’t know how to take that.
No I don’t think Teofimo gets hit too clean. Loma is a sharp shooter. It’s a fight. In fights you get hit. Lopez’s chin held up.
It’s very hard for a fighter to do exactly every single thing the corner says, when they say it. But that doesn’t mean the fighter is going against the corner. It means he’s feeling his way through. So of course it happens. This isn’t a movie or video game. It’s a real fight with gloves on and exact scripts are hard to duplicate.
But if a fighter goes against the script totally. If a fighter insist certain things in camp or during the fight. Then the fighter HAS to win. He pays his trainers for a reason. And if he defies them totally, he better win. Or else the fighter has to be held accountable.
The biggest case of this is Ali vs Foreman. Ali felt that Foreman was able to cut the ring off too good. And he didn’t want to burn his legs out. So he stayed on the ropes. He tied him up and frustrated him with lead right hands. But there is only one Ali. If a fighter decides to totally change the gameplan he better be special.
In this case I don’t believe that with Teofimo. He may have made some on the fly adjustments but I don’t believe he totally changed the game plan.
You’ve said time and time again if Loma lines these young lions up he’ll take an L, you see what most of us don’t. Hats off.
What time time for boxing we’ve got ahead of us with Lopez, Garcia and Haney. You could throw in tank but I don’t think he wants to fight or be great as much as these guys do. Lopez going after Loma and now calling for haney or the Taylor ramires winner. Haney chasing Loma now looking for Lopez (he’s not had an elite fight yet but I believe he wants it). Garcia going for Luke Campbell in a fight that I think is very very tough. He could have avoided Campbell and if he blows Campbell away I don’t think he’ll get the credit he deserves. DOGS. And these’s guys could fight each other for the next 10 years over three divisions.
These guys can change to curve and the mentality of young defeated fighters daring to be great. I hope they do.
4 man tournament at 135.
Semi 1: Lopez vs Haney
Semi 2: Garcia vs Tank
How would you see this tournament going?
Bread’s Response: I think we are in a possible Golden Era with those 4 kids. But they have to fight! They can’t BS around and wait until one loses his prime to pick on him. They are in their 20s. They can all fight 2x a piece over the next 5 to 7 years. Let’s see. Teofimo lopez took the 1st step up. Let’s see who follows.
For the record here is what I’m not going to do. I’m not going to give fighters credit for winning fights on paper. I’m not going to give credit for projection. No one can fight everyone. But there are too many fighters who “act” like they want to fight but never do. As a fighter you have to find a way to challenge yourself. Everyone is NOT scared of you. Everyone is not ducking you. So let’s see these young men challenge themselves. I am really looking forward to this.
Ssup Bread,
Saw your tweet about an athlete's physical prime and the people arguing with you. Man, all they need to do is lookup the age of athletes when they made their world records in pure play physical sports like track and field, swimming and weightlifting. Everyone from Usain Bolt to Michael Phelps made their records at the age of 23 to 24 years. There will of course be exceptions but it is mostly true of all humans.
Anyway, I read an interesting comment about Crawford. Someone whose opinion I respect stated that even Crawford is at his ceiling weight at welterweight. It got me thinking and I realized that he has indeed struggled against both Benavidez and Kavaliauskas despite the fact that he knocked out both of them. If grapevine is to be believed, his fight night weight is also usually around 152 lbs. Do you think he is also in a similar situation as Loma at 135 lbs? As in, is he also a little out of his comfort zone at 147 lbs?
Regards,
Saurabh
Bread’s Response: Just because some fighters can maintain their primes into their 30s that doesn’t mean it’s the norm. Athletes today especially boxers last longer because they have modern recovery and they fight less. You have to put everything in CONTEXT and generalize. Your mind and skillset also increases with age. But from a pure physicality perspective I would rather be 25 than 32 any day of the week. In fact if you go to any popular gym in the country. Watch a 21 year old elite amateur, spar a 30 year old elite pro. Watch their reaction times, and movements. There is a slight difference and the amateur gets the better of it more times than he doesn’t. There is also an issue of wear and tear.
No I think Crawford’s ceiling weight is 154 not 147. Meaning I think he would compete at 154. Maybe not dominate every fighter but he could compete there. The reason I believe this is because of Crawford’s length. Crawford has a nice walk down game but he doesn’t have to come forward and expend crazy energy, to be effective. He’s built similar to Floyd Mayweather, where he’s not overly tall but he’s overly long. Crawford can lay on the outside and box vs the bigger guys and use his superior processing ability to overcome his physicality disadvantages. I think Crawford would look like Mayweather did at 154. He wouldn’t run guys over but he would be very effective.
I just rewatched forrest v mosley 1. What a great fight! Not many people were picking forrest to win. What's your assessment of Forrest and how would he compete against a prime mayweather?
Bread’s Response: I thought Forrest was an excellent fighter. He was tall, he had nice power, an excellent jab and sound fundamentals. Unfortunately for him his career is based around 2 fighters. 2 wins vs Shane Mosley and 2 losses to Ricardo Mayorga. I would have liked to see Forrest get a chance to fight other elite fighters, in order to expand on his body of work.
You can see he had talent. But not seeing him vs Oscar, Tito, Tsyzu or Margarito it gets hard for me. It’s hard to determine how good because maybe he just had Mosley’s number. That happens more times than we realize.
Overall I think he was very, very good. I believe Floyd is a better fighter in a P4P sense and even as a welterweight. But matching up head to head I think it would be very hard, for a shorter, smaller fighter who can’t bully Forrest to beat him. His jab and right hand were real. So stylistically I think he would have given Floyd a very hard time. I don’t know if I can pick him, because Floyd can usually adjust. It’s a hard fight for me and I think they would have to fight 3x to decide a winner. Very close fight because of styles and physicality.
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